The Dutch 'Moroccans' Debate

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6 Responses

  1. Wytzia says:

    Thanks Martijn for your interesting article. I am not an anthropologist nor a muslim but as a immigration lawyer I meet people from all over the world including many muslims. Like you I am Dutch so if my English may sound harsh or blunt you can blame that to the fact that it is not my native language. As I have no intention to hurt someone feelings.

    Reading your article it seems that you connect the fact that people speak of the “Moroccan problem” with the fact that those people are muslim and/or immigrants. But why is there in the media no mention of a Turkish-problem, Bosnian-problem, Iraqi-problem or Afghan-problem?

    What in general is meant with Moroccan problem is as far as I can see: criminal behavior or socially not accepted behavior. And that behavior would be frowned upon regardless whom it is coming from in my opinion.

    (Kicking a guy to dead and the schoolkids cheering over it the next day is despicable no matter where those people came from or what they belief in.)

    I wonder what could have caused the difference as Turkish, Bosnian, Afghan or Iraqi people are predominantly Muslim too.
    1) Lower social class of parents and grandparents and therefore not learned certain etiquette? (Refugees are mostly coming from the upper classes in their land of origin)
    2) A difference in respect for the state? (Afghanistan, Turkey, Iraq, Yugoslavia had a very state organised society)
    3) A less diverse society in the land of origin? (A,I,T,Y have religious minorities and/or had communist state doctrine)
    4) A different “style” of Islam?
    5) Other priorities in life?
    I hope you can shine your light on that.

    Regarding your example of the guy who wanted to change his name:
    I used to have a colleague with a Dutch name who was adopted from Asia. Every time someone saw him for the first time after having talked with him on the phone they said “Oh I always thought you would be a tall blond Frysian” He had not a problem with that. But imagine now your name is Mohammed Abdulla Jansen and you are a tall blond Frysian and not a muslim. And Islam coming with a set of rules to live by. Maybe that person does not like to have to explain every time people do not have to order halal food when he comes to dinner, he likes to drink a beer, he did not renounce Islam and converted to something else and how he ended up with that name or be called to order by Muslims why he is eating during Ramadan? A name is something very personal. If you do not feel well with it you can ask to get it changed. People do for various reasons e.g. princes Christina. Same when my Dutch friend who converted to Islam changed his name into a Muslim name as many converts do. Or the Dutch guy who wanted to change his very Christian name because he lost his faith. It was maybe summarizing by the newspaper (have not read it) but saying the guy looked Dutch and was no Muslim maybe just covers why he wanted another name and you are reading discriminating thoughts into it.

    Well that is all for here. Feel free to mail me Martijn if you have questions and otherwise “tot ziens” on Twitter.

    Kind regards,

    Wytzia

  2. Mohammed Abdulla Jansen says:

    Dear Wytzia,

    Trying to look for a problem in your mentioned list doesn’t make any difference in my opinion. We have the judiciary system in the Netherlands and the deviants should be taken care of by them.
    My niece, who is a girl of 14 years old was cycling yesterday together with her sister of 17. The younger one wears a headscarf, while the older one doesn’t (emphasizing both their free choice). The older one was cycling ahead and when they passed a man of about 50 years old, my younger niece got attacked by him and was punched. She was fasting because she wants to be more like the Prophet Muhammed. She ignored the man because she thought it would be of better ethics to leave the man in his ignorance.

    I feel sorry for people like him who are so blinded by their racist, ignorant, stupid barbarian attitude, that they cannot even think straight anymore.

    Let me do the same name as what many muslims have to hear day in day out: What needs to be debunked most at this moment is the myth that the Netherlands is tolerant or whatever positive you might want to say, because just as the Moroccans are being forced for speaking out (and if they don’t, it means they are pro violence) the Dutch are keeping silent against all this crap. This isn’t an isolated issue, there are at least dozens of similar incidents whereby a headscarf wearing person has been attacked VIOLENTLY!

    Greatest hypocrites of all, claiming to be tolerant for all (read homosexuals), but when you don’t look or act like a white skinned blond haired blue eyed person, or should I say Übermensch, you are being attacked physical or non-physical by the Übermensch.

    It’s okay to be racist, thinking like Hitler that you are better than others and that the other shouldn’t exist because of their inferiority, but be open and honest about it, please don’t claim to be the opposite while not practicing what you preach!

  3. Wytzia says:

    Dear mr “Who is not using his own name”

    Sorry to hear about that scary moment for your niece. Unfortunately there are more crazy people walking free then sitting in mental institutions. I for myself have very light blue eyes and have been verbally attacked to have Nazi eyes by several drunks or mentally disturbed people in the past. But regarding living in the Netherlands : of all my friends and former refugee clients I normally hear only positive sounds that they feel welcomed by neighbors and helped and feel very much at home in their new country. I only recall one incident in which my Moroccan-Dutch friend with a headscarf who just moved to a highrise apartment block in a big city that when she walked in the elevator and said ‘Good evening” she was looked at as if she had said “I am from Mars” and the person did not say anything back. We wondered if it was because of the headscarf or because in that area people were not used to people saying hello or because that person was just an impolite nasty one.

    But I am afraid by discussing this we are about to loose the connection with Martijn’s article.

    But I have one question that came to mind when reading your contribution. You write it as a letter to me and then in the last part you say:
    “It’s okay to be racist, thinking like Hitler that you are better than others and that the other shouldn’t exist because of their inferiority, but be open and honest about it, please don’t claim to be the opposite while not practicing what you preach!”
    Is that meant in general or is that meant for me? Because when you meant that for me in private I do not understand you.

  4. Mohammed Abdulla Jansen says:

    Dear Wytzia,

    It wasn’t meant as a personal attack. I don’t think you are an evil person or whatever. From “Let me do the same” on was meant as a general message. If I insulted you in any fashion, I appologize.

  5. Mohammed Abdulla Jansen says:

    Dear Wytzia,,

    It wasn’t meant as a personal attack. I don’t think you are an evil person or whatever. From “Let me do the same” on was meant as a general message. If I insulted you in any fashion, I appologize.

  1. December 22, 2013

    […] but, in the Netherlands anyway, also to Moroccan-Dutch people for example during the so-called Moroccans-debate earlier this year in media and parliament. Furthermore it may be the case that religious rights of […]

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